Awfully sorry for replying so late but I love this ! Never really thought of the possibility of Mam being the emotional centre. And thank you so much for your views on the assault scene, and overall for such an insightful critique ! This has been most helpful. I look forward to reading more feedback :)
Thank you both! This is a great format and reading your analysis gave me a lot of food for thought. (Love the suggestion on how to handle the assault. SO good!) Even if you're not able to publish entire pieces, I'd still find it helpful to read excerpts, like you did here.
I love the premise and really enjoyed reading the article and was hoping to look forward to more.
The problem is that the subjected line of the column in my email causes me a momentary glitch, which I don't have bandwidth for; I've already deleted the email (I usually do not delete the newsletters so I can go back to them later) and honestly, with this email subject (I'm not sure if you can title the column "re: submissions" without the subject line being that), I will probably also unsubscribe. I'd like to really communicate that this isn't intended as any sort of attack, but more explaining why someone might unsubscribe. I'm hoping the subject line can be changed because I'm definitely looking forward to the column.
Sorry you felt some discomfort in the inbox. We really like the column name at the moment but maybe we can do something about the subject line? In any case, thanks for being part of our community!
This is a fantastic breakdown. Something not all writers get to experience unless exploring feedback from others. It's always eye-opening to read pieces like this from editors. Writers often struggle with feedback (good or bad) unless it comes from a source they see as "authoritative", so this is indispensable information. Thanks!
For the public feedback it's free if your work is selected. For our flexible feedback it varies a lot. We built it to be super customizable. If you go through the first few pages, you can see the pricing page before ever purchasing it so you can see how it works: https://chillsubs.fillout.com/flexiblefeedback
Yes, I love this idea and the editors' comments are hugely helpful. However, it's weird to not be able to read the actual story they're dissecting. I understand the writer might have concerns about making the story "previously published," but ... 1. I guess she's found it unpublishable in its current form, so edits will probably make it a different story. 2. Since this is a subscribers'-only item (I think?), I don't think it could be really considered to have been "published" here. Please consider giving us the entire story next time.
It's tricky isn't it? I really agree that I need to see the story, but also totally get that that could hamstring future submissions. It's a fantastic format, but would be so much more interesting if any authors are willing to submit a sacrificial draft for our benefit. I probably would be.
Ha, yeah, it was a tricky one! We didn't want to "reveal" too much to endanger later publication. Definitely would love to show a full story and breakdown if a writer's willing: like Ben said, this was just our test drive.
thanks for considering this idea. Like I said, I think there's a very strong case that posting the full article couldn't be considered previously published.
Yes, this is incredibly insightful. I so appreciate it. And I have a big, fat, possibly irrelevant question that I'll bet you can help me with.
There's a lot in here about actionable goals and story movement and "what even IS the story?" Those are great insights and I can use them. OTOH, I am a huge fan of mind-bending fiction: James Joyce is my favorite author by a mile. The novels I read thrill me no end, even when it's hard for me to consider them in terms of, say, "what IS the story?" (people have asked this about Finnegans Wake for decades). I'm trying to put these two inputs together--my reading experience and your great editorial inputs--and I can't. I want to say maybe the full range of great writing includes stories that don't move in the traditional way, but can I actually say that?
Any input you have I'd love to hear. Thank you, folks, for contributing your time to this.
This sort of exercise is so helpful. I can already see revisions that stumped me. Taking the story apart and using those questions as the impetus for change in my own writing has already begun. Thanks!
Great question. Ultimately it comes down to the unspoken agreement between writer and reader: they give us their attention. How will we reward it?
It's a precious and finite resource.
There are lots of ways that fiction can 'move' and what we call plot isn't always necessary. But it's a really helpful tool.
Some readers might love 200 pages of puzzles, pondering, and language games. Other readers might want that material delivered through a murder mystery or a quest through a magical Wonderland. Tastes can differ. And I suspect the issue goes beyond taste: different readers might be hard-wired to enjoy different things.
So yes you can absolutely say that great writing includes work without plot. And I would agree.
The first time I read Amy Hempel's "Tumble Home," I was like: What is this magic?? And how does it work?!
Maybe that's something we can get into in a future column: the (invisible) engines that drive great plotless work and how they function (or not)
Ooh, great answers, folks. Thank you. (Now I have to go back and reread "Love Medicine.") Yes, the match between writer and reader is essential; I've always assumed that there aren't many readers who want to read those plot-breaking mind-benders--and hence no market for these works. But but but publishers keep publishing them.
FWIW, this doesn't affect my current writing--much. Every now and then, though, I write something that feels way out there and yet charms me enough to press forward with it. I suppose that raises the classic question of why we write, too, but I'll stop before I spin into that.
Not to be cheeky but "Rule 34" of the internet seems to indicate that there's an audience for EVERYthing. And that's a good thing... for writers at least.
I love big fat possibly irrelevant questions! I mean, same. Sometimes the story -- the core thread that's pulling the narrative forward -- can be lifted out for examination. But 100% what "story" means can change across traditions much less individual works. There isn't always one thread (or any thread). Now I'm not EVEN going to tackle Finnegan's Wake here....but I will say that some of the novels I most wildly love break familiar Western plot-driven structures: like "Reader's Block" by David Markson or "Invisible Cities" by Italo Calvino or "Love Medicine" by Louise Erdrich. Okay enough rambling but you know now that you got me thinking about it maybe I can talk Steve into breaking down a "what even IS the story" story on here. Hmm.
This critique is so helpful. I love the way you both broke the story down into actual components and missing components and suggest how to fix it. Very instructive.
Loved this! More please.
Awfully sorry for replying so late but I love this ! Never really thought of the possibility of Mam being the emotional centre. And thank you so much for your views on the assault scene, and overall for such an insightful critique ! This has been most helpful. I look forward to reading more feedback :)
Yay! Let us know when and where it lands! <3
Thank you for sharing your work with us! And hope to see "Weather" out in the world soon.
loved it! looking forward to more e
Thank you both! This is a great format and reading your analysis gave me a lot of food for thought. (Love the suggestion on how to handle the assault. SO good!) Even if you're not able to publish entire pieces, I'd still find it helpful to read excerpts, like you did here.
Thank you Amanda! I'm happy it was helpful!
Right?? Autumn has such an elegant touch. Your kindness is much appreciated and hope you'll share some work with us too!
I love the premise and really enjoyed reading the article and was hoping to look forward to more.
The problem is that the subjected line of the column in my email causes me a momentary glitch, which I don't have bandwidth for; I've already deleted the email (I usually do not delete the newsletters so I can go back to them later) and honestly, with this email subject (I'm not sure if you can title the column "re: submissions" without the subject line being that), I will probably also unsubscribe. I'd like to really communicate that this isn't intended as any sort of attack, but more explaining why someone might unsubscribe. I'm hoping the subject line can be changed because I'm definitely looking forward to the column.
Sorry you felt some discomfort in the inbox. We really like the column name at the moment but maybe we can do something about the subject line? In any case, thanks for being part of our community!
This is fantastic feedback. Better than a lot of what I see in my creative writing classes.
Thank you Becca!
This is a fantastic breakdown. Something not all writers get to experience unless exploring feedback from others. It's always eye-opening to read pieces like this from editors. Writers often struggle with feedback (good or bad) unless it comes from a source they see as "authoritative", so this is indispensable information. Thanks!
So glad this helps!
Very nourishing....
Thanks for reading! Hope you'll share some work with us too
this column is gold — to borrow the terms here, it offers actionable insight
What a compliment T__T thank you for your attention!
I love the idea - but have two questions: How much does it cost and is there a word limit?
For the public feedback it's free if your work is selected. For our flexible feedback it varies a lot. We built it to be super customizable. If you go through the first few pages, you can see the pricing page before ever purchasing it so you can see how it works: https://chillsubs.fillout.com/flexiblefeedback
Yes, I love this idea and the editors' comments are hugely helpful. However, it's weird to not be able to read the actual story they're dissecting. I understand the writer might have concerns about making the story "previously published," but ... 1. I guess she's found it unpublishable in its current form, so edits will probably make it a different story. 2. Since this is a subscribers'-only item (I think?), I don't think it could be really considered to have been "published" here. Please consider giving us the entire story next time.
It's tricky isn't it? I really agree that I need to see the story, but also totally get that that could hamstring future submissions. It's a fantastic format, but would be so much more interesting if any authors are willing to submit a sacrificial draft for our benefit. I probably would be.
I agree. It'd be great to see the entire story. It's hard to see any big changes in action with just the opening paragraphs.
Ha, yeah, it was a tricky one! We didn't want to "reveal" too much to endanger later publication. Definitely would love to show a full story and breakdown if a writer's willing: like Ben said, this was just our test drive.
True, we can add an option in the form for the writer to decide. That's a good idea. This was our first time around. Just didn't want to assume.
thanks for considering this idea. Like I said, I think there's a very strong case that posting the full article couldn't be considered previously published.
Please continue this -- very helpful!
Karen! Thank you for reading and hope to see more of your work in the inbox :)
Hi Steve -- I'm looking forward to sending you more work when I can. I'm enjoying reviewing the comments you sent me on the last one. You're the best!
Happy to hear it. We're def. planning on it.
Yes, this is incredibly insightful. I so appreciate it. And I have a big, fat, possibly irrelevant question that I'll bet you can help me with.
There's a lot in here about actionable goals and story movement and "what even IS the story?" Those are great insights and I can use them. OTOH, I am a huge fan of mind-bending fiction: James Joyce is my favorite author by a mile. The novels I read thrill me no end, even when it's hard for me to consider them in terms of, say, "what IS the story?" (people have asked this about Finnegans Wake for decades). I'm trying to put these two inputs together--my reading experience and your great editorial inputs--and I can't. I want to say maybe the full range of great writing includes stories that don't move in the traditional way, but can I actually say that?
Any input you have I'd love to hear. Thank you, folks, for contributing your time to this.
This sort of exercise is so helpful. I can already see revisions that stumped me. Taking the story apart and using those questions as the impetus for change in my own writing has already begun. Thanks!
Lynne
I love this!
Great question. Ultimately it comes down to the unspoken agreement between writer and reader: they give us their attention. How will we reward it?
It's a precious and finite resource.
There are lots of ways that fiction can 'move' and what we call plot isn't always necessary. But it's a really helpful tool.
Some readers might love 200 pages of puzzles, pondering, and language games. Other readers might want that material delivered through a murder mystery or a quest through a magical Wonderland. Tastes can differ. And I suspect the issue goes beyond taste: different readers might be hard-wired to enjoy different things.
So yes you can absolutely say that great writing includes work without plot. And I would agree.
The first time I read Amy Hempel's "Tumble Home," I was like: What is this magic?? And how does it work?!
Maybe that's something we can get into in a future column: the (invisible) engines that drive great plotless work and how they function (or not)
I'd love to see you examine this in a future column.
Ooh, great answers, folks. Thank you. (Now I have to go back and reread "Love Medicine.") Yes, the match between writer and reader is essential; I've always assumed that there aren't many readers who want to read those plot-breaking mind-benders--and hence no market for these works. But but but publishers keep publishing them.
FWIW, this doesn't affect my current writing--much. Every now and then, though, I write something that feels way out there and yet charms me enough to press forward with it. I suppose that raises the classic question of why we write, too, but I'll stop before I spin into that.
Not to be cheeky but "Rule 34" of the internet seems to indicate that there's an audience for EVERYthing. And that's a good thing... for writers at least.
I love big fat possibly irrelevant questions! I mean, same. Sometimes the story -- the core thread that's pulling the narrative forward -- can be lifted out for examination. But 100% what "story" means can change across traditions much less individual works. There isn't always one thread (or any thread). Now I'm not EVEN going to tackle Finnegan's Wake here....but I will say that some of the novels I most wildly love break familiar Western plot-driven structures: like "Reader's Block" by David Markson or "Invisible Cities" by Italo Calvino or "Love Medicine" by Louise Erdrich. Okay enough rambling but you know now that you got me thinking about it maybe I can talk Steve into breaking down a "what even IS the story" story on here. Hmm.
Yes, please! And thanks for the reading recommendations.
This critique is so helpful. I love the way you both broke the story down into actual components and missing components and suggest how to fix it. Very instructive.
Yay! Thanks Polly!
This is truly great! Seeing how a critics mind works is intriguing and I think it will improve my writing. Can’t wait to read more.
So glad to hear that! We had fun -- and also can't wait to do more.