On Balancing Self-Belief and External Validation with Jenny Tinghui Zhang
“Everyone has a moment when they finally feel they can call themselves a writer.” | Subs and Chill
Subs and Chill is a bi-monthly conversation with writers on rejections, the submission process, and all the moments in between hitting submit. This week, Jenny Tinghui Zhang, author of Four Treasures of the Sky, talks about handling negative feedback, learning to identify when a piece is ready, and how she balances internal motivation with the external validation that comes with being a writer.
This month, we have a video version! Watch it here or scroll down to find the transcript.
“At that point, it becomes this existential question of why this piece—like why am I working on it? Why do I want this to be out there? There has to be this intrinsic motivation around the ‘why’ of it all.”
Interview Transcript
Kailey DelloRusso: So I figured we could start off by talking about rejections because it's part of the writing life. We all go through it. If you can remember when you first started submitting your work, how did you get rejected? What is something you learned from those first few ones that you received?
Jenny Tinghui Zhang: Yeah, I started submitting after taking those creative writing classes in undergrad—intro to creative writing, intro to fiction, that kind of thing. My professor would talk about publications like Glimmer Train—this was when Glimmer Train still existed—and Tin House as the peak places to be published. After those courses, I just felt really confident and hopeful, so I sent my work out to as many places as I could, with no strategy. I ended up getting rejected quite a bit. I remember my 21-year-old heart thinking, “How could this happen to me?” Up to that point, I’d always gotten positive feedback from my peers and encouragement from my teachers. So that first “door shut” moment was really tough—definitely a reality check.
KD: Were you aiming for those top-tier places your professors had mentioned, or just submitting to whatever you could find?
JTZ: Yeah, I think that was the mistake I made—and I’m sure a lot of new writers do this too—you just throw everything out there. I’d look for who was open and submit to 10, 15, 20 places without really researching or reading what they were actually publishing. It was very much a “who’s open, I’ll submit this and hope for the best” approach.
KD: I think you kind of have to go through that, though, right? There’s a strategy, sure, but it seems like a lot of writers start out the way you did. Maybe that’s how you take the leap—just jumping in, even if later it seems like a mistake.
JTZ: Exactly. At some point, you have to face rejection, deal with it, and figure out how to keep going. I think every writer has to go through that in order to come out stronger.
KD: Definitely. So, what was the first piece you ended up getting published?
JTZ: I think my first piece was something I’d written in undergrad for an online journal called Revolution House. I submitted it because they’d just opened and were very new as a journal, so I thought I might have a better chance. I ended up getting it published, but then the journal went defunct within a year or two, so that piece doesn’t exist online anymore, nor does the journal. But that was the first moment of, "Okay, there’s hope after all."
KD: Yeah. When you were looking for places to submit, what was your research process like? Were you finding them on Twitter? How did that look?
JTZ: Back in 2012, I was using resources like Poets & Writers, which has a database. Later on, I’d find things like Electric Literature’s quarterly "Where to Submit" list of all the journals open for submissions. As I got further along in my writing journey, I started using those resources more thoughtfully. I realized I needed to be more targeted in my approach instead of sending work to 20 places. I’d focus on maybe five publications, read through them, look at their masthead and mission statement, and really get to know them. Then I’d decide if my piece would be a good fit. It seems obvious now, but you kind of have to go through rejection and start asking why it happened.
KD: That’s really good advice. Were you mostly submitting fiction, or were you doing essays as well?
JTZ: I was doing a bit of both—fiction and creative nonfiction.
KD: Okay, so what was your editorial process like? How did you know when a piece felt ready to start submitting?
JTZ: I don’t know if I have a great answer, because there were plenty of times I thought a piece was ready and then got a quick rejection—the fastest form rejection possible! But in the final year of my MFA, I was working on my thesis, a hybrid collection of creative nonfiction and fiction, which went through several rounds of feedback from my thesis committee and workshop sessions. That’s when I started to understand the feeling of “this is ready.” For me, that meant, “I can’t take this any further. If I tinker more, I’ll make it worse.” It’s hard to explain, but when there’s nothing else I can do in that moment, that’s when it’s ready.
KD: I think that’s good advice. Don’t you feel that you also still need to be excited about the story? Even though rejection stings, I think to power through, you have to still love the piece and believe that someone else will, too.
JTZ: Absolutely. At that point, it becomes this existential question of why this piece—why am I working on it, and why do I want it out there? There has to be some intrinsic motivation, that “why” that keeps you going.
KD: Is there a rejection that really stood out to you? Maybe one that was particularly harsh, intense, or even comical? We all get a variety over the years.
JTZ: This wasn’t from a literary journal, but from an agent I had queried. I’d sent her my thesis collection, and we’d had a long correspondence over a year, so I was extremely hopeful. But then I got a very short response—just two lines. She said, “I admire the work, but I don’t believe in this enough; I don’t think I’m the right agent for it.” I got that email the day before I had to defend my thesis to graduate from my MFA. So you can imagine how heartbreaking it was to receive that and then immediately have to look at my thesis and think…
KD: Wow.
JTZ: I actually hated it in that moment. I felt like I had done the worst thing in the world and lost all belief in my work. And then the next day, I had to sit with my three professors who’d been helping me all semester and try to drum up the strength and goodwill toward my project to defend it. That was really hard, to keep believing in my work when someone else didn’t. I ended up breaking down into tears during my defense—it was really emotional. But, you know, I survived, and maybe one day I’ll go back to that thesis.
KD: That sounds intense. So after graduation, you put that aside and started working on your novel. What was the process like for querying that?
JTZ: It was a little unconventional because I was also writing and publishing personal essays online. I had a column with Catapult, and through that, I had several agents reach out, asking if I had anything longer. That same semester, I’d started working on a novel, so I told them I might have something to show by summer. My submission process didn’t involve much traditional querying—I already had a handful of agents interested, and through back-and-forth correspondence and revision suggestions, that’s how it all happened.
KD: That’s amazing. You had a difficult querying experience before, so it’s great you didn’t have to go through that again. With your Catapult column, how did that come about? Did you pitch them, or did it evolve from something you’d written there?
JTZ: I found out about it through a newsletter called Opportunities of the Week, which lists editors’ pitch requests from Twitter. I saw that Catapult’s editor, Matt Ortile, was looking for pitches, so I sent him an idea about living in Wyoming while dealing with disordered eating, and he accepted it. Later, he reached out, asking if I’d like to pitch a column, so I proposed one based on being an Asian American woman living in Wyoming. I ended up writing six essays for that column, all based on a pitch.
KD: That’s so interesting! I think pitches can be intimidating, so it’s inspiring to hear how it worked out for you. By the way, we’re launching a Where to Pitch newsletter at Chill Subs soon, since many writers want to know more about it. Editors can want different things, so pitching can feel open-ended and intimidating.
JTZ: Yes, and when I sent my first pitch, Matt, my editor, actually worked with me to improve it. He asked how my essay would treat the topic differently from others, and to outline the arc. I was really fortunate to have an editor willing to work with me instead of just closing the door on a weak first pitch.
KD: I miss Catapult. I was sad when they shut down. Is there a publication or magazine you’d love to see yourself in someday? Or have you already been published in your dream publication?
JTZ: I’d love to have something in The Sun, especially their nonfiction. I also love Brevity. I think short nonfiction is so challenging since I’m more of a long-form writer, so publishing there would be a dream and a challenge.
KD: Andrea A. Firth, one of the editors at Brevity, has done a lot for Chill Subs and Write or Die. She’s wonderful. Let me know if you get published there!
So my last question is sort of twofold: Is getting published all it’s cracked up to be? And, do you have any advice for writers currently working toward publication?
JTZ: To the first question, yes, I think so. Publication is a vote of confidence for your writing. As much as we say we shouldn’t rely on external validation, it’s tough to own the title “writer.” Everyone has a moment when they finally feel they can call themselves a writer. Having a publication credit can give you that confidence, that feeling of “Yes, this is what I do.” Not that it’s the only way, but it helps you step into that role. So for me, it was worth it.
KD: And for those trying to get published?
JTZ: My advice would be to be specific and intentional about where you submit. Sometimes it feels like a race to get published, so you submit to whoever’s open. But it’s better to spend time with publications, read them, and submit to those you admire. This saves time and helps you focus on what you want from publication and for your piece.
Jenny Tinghui Zhang is a Chinese-American writer and author of the internationally bestselling novel Four Treasures of the Sky (Flatiron Books), which has been translated into 12 languages and short and longlisted for the Chautauqua Prize, the Dublin Literary Award, the Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Fiction, and the VCU Cabell First Novelist Award. Her work has appeared in The Cut, The New York Times, Texas Highways, and The Rumpus, among others. She is a National Book Foundation 5 Under 35 Honoree and has received support from Yaddo, Kundiman, VONA/Voices, Tin House, and the University of Wyoming, where she completed her MFA. Her second novel, Superfan, is forthcoming from Flatiron Books in 2026.
To rejection: Walk on.
Such a great interview. So good to see you, Jenny!